Can we keep this plant legal?

[Ragabash]

 

I have a lil disconnect; maybe someone here can explain: I'm all for having a good time. I'm a fan of expanding the mind. I was a dedicated practicioner of shamisim for 2 years.  I love the idea of trying out S.D.; I think it'll be right up my alley. But as I post this reply there's an advertisement for Salvia extracts at 250x strength. Yes, the stuff is legal. I want it to stay that way. Yes, chemicly, it's fairly simple to refine leaf into an extract of whatever strength- but once you clear 20x natural strength of the most potent naturally occuring hallucinatory herb currently known to man, then, rather than slowly introduce this herb to the body through digestion, you smoke it out of a- a water pipe. Salvinorin-A gets absorbed through the lungs. Hits you all at once. Shortens the duration, but then it draws you entirely out of this world. This sounds, to me, a lot like the weaponized hallucinigin from Batman Begins. I'm not saying any one of these things is a bad way to practice, but when you combine them all, with no regulatory legislation, you have a dicey combination. Some politicians know just enough to be scared of this herb. And there's a whole lot of footage on the web of people having the most confused, terrifying, or just plain unplesant experiences imaginable from S.D. that encourages them to be. Some choice samples:
youtube.com/watch?v=u_LRv1lvyl0
youtube.com/watch?v=YYxkp62veWE&feature=related
And my personal favorite bad example... let us all learn from this gentleman's mistake...
youtube.com/watch?v=VvKtA-plQPI

I know there are reasons for posting these vids.
But this is the sort of thing that will scare the hell out of narrow minded people, some of whom might just vote.
We've got to find a way to combat this. In addition to the bad publicity that's being distributed on the web & in the news, we've got to face simple ignorance; when I told my Father the name "Salvia Divinorum", he remembered it being used as a date rape additive used to spike marijuana, inducing unconsciusness. My father's an educated man; but he, like so many, has lumped this herb in with pot and assumes both are a bad thing. A dangerous thing. Something to be illegalized. Now, while I've not yet tried S.D. myself, I will within the next week, & I have high hopes for it. (no pun intended.)

This, coupled with it's actual (as opposed to percived) irresponsible use, is the problem we have to overcome if we want to continue enjoying this experience legally as the years wear on. Any suggestions?

[Teotzlcoatl]

The key to preservation is cultivation! Get out there and GROW!

[Ragabash]

Preservation's not the focus of this thread- everyone that's involved in this forum could have a living room brimming with Sally. But if she becomes illegal in your state there's nothing to stop the nosy neighbor or the pissed ex-roomate from tipping off the cops and having them bash your door in & drag you to jail like someone pushing cocaine on 8'th graders.
Do we want another natural herb with so much potential to go the way of marijuana?
Illegalized due to bad publicity, fear & ignorance?

Harmless practicioners slapped with massive fines or jail time because they wanted to improve their lives & expand their minds?

I think that'd suck. Anybody else?

I found this quote on Erowid.Org from Daniel Siebert. It was published in the Ethnogen Review. I think it's well articulated:

"Salvinorin A (the major active principal of the plant Salvia divinorum) is an extremely powerful consciousness altering compound. In fact it is the most potent naturally occurring hallucinogen thus far isolated. But before would-be experimenters get too worked-up about it, it should be made clear that the effects are often extremely unnerving and there is a very real potential for physical danger with its use.

When the herb Salvia divinorum is consumed either by smoking the dried leaf or chewing the fresh leaves the effects are usually (but not always) pleasant and interesting, this is because when used this way the amount of salvinorin A absorbed into the blood stream is usually very small and in the case of the chewed leaves it is absorbed into the blood stream very gradually.

The pure compound salvinorin A is active at 200 - 500 mcg when vaporized and inhaled. Since very few people have the costly equipment necessary to accurately weigh anything close to this small an amount, it is inevitable that people will try to visually estimate the dose. Unfortunately there is little room for error before the effects become potentially dangerous. When the dose goes above 500 - 1000 mcg the effects can be very alarming, I have seen several people get up and lunge around the room falling over furniture, babbling incomprehensible nonsense and knocking their heads into walls. Several people have tried to wander out of the house. When the experience is over they have no memory of any of this. In fact they usually remember very different events. To an outside observer people in this condition have a blank look in their eyes as if no one is present (and perhaps no one is). It is also common for people to have a facial expression which is probably best described as being like that of a frightened animal. It appears that at these "larger" doses one completely loses awareness of, and control over, the physical body and for some reason part of the brain causes the body to get up and move about recklessly while the individual has no awareness of where their physical body is or what it is doing. It seems inevitable that one of these days some careless person will do too large a dose without a sitter and will wander out in the street, or hurt themselves in some way.

Because the dose is so small and insignificant looking, there is a tendency for people to think they need more than what they are told is a safe dose. Another problem is that the technique of vaporizing and inhaling the compound can be a bit tricky. Salvinorin A has a relatively high boiling point and people often don't get it hot enough to remain a gas all the way down into the lungs. Another problem is that so little is used that the vapor often disperses before it gets inhaled. Sometimes people just don't hold the vapor in their lungs long enough for thorough absorption. Several people after trying a dose in the recommended safe range and not getting an effect assumed that they needed a larger dose, when in fact the problem was that they did not vaporize the material efficiently the first time. I have already seen more than one intelligent, careful and experienced person accidentally do too large a dose because of this. Fortunately they had sitters and managed to get through the experience safely.

It is also important to understand that there have been no toxicological studies of this compound in humans. It is true that the Mazatecs have used the plant for a very long time and don't seem to have problems with it, but when the pure compound is used it would be a simple matter to consume a dose hundreds of times greater than anything ever encountered by the Mazatecs.

Not only is salvinorin A chemically different from other hallucinogens (it is a diterpene not an alkaloid) but its effects are quite different as well. Many people consider the effects less manageable and harder to work with than other entheogens. The majority of people who have had a full blown experience with salvinorin A are reluctant to ever do it again. Anyone choosing to experiment with this compound should always have an alert, clear-thinking sitter present to prevent them from injuring themselves or others.

Salvia divinorum as an herb can be used quite safely and many people claim that it has proved beneficial to them. Hopefully there will not be a rush to isolate the pure compound as it is almost inevitable that it will cause problems, people will get hurt, the compound and possibly the plant will get negative attention and it will become scheduled. We will just be adding one more potentially valuable plant ally to the list of species which are already feared and condemned in our society. If you choose to pursue a relationship with this plant please treat it with respect and care. Perhaps if people can use the plant safely and responsibly it will be able to grow and thrive freely into the future. "

[Teotzlcoatl]

If everybody has it growing, then it will survive.

I want a Sally plant in every home!

[|if3]

If everybody has it growing, then it will survive.
I want a Sally plant in every home!

unfortunately that's one way that it will be able to survive. I wish that ignorance wasn't so prevalent in our society: Especially by the people we trust enough to be our 'authority'.

James

[Teotzlcoatl]

Get your plants now, while the idiots are still trying to make it illegal.

[CoryDeLarge]

Yes get them and spread them!

[Jordana Divinorum]

I doubt it will remain legal, it feels like wishful thinking.  Salvia teaches us that we're all one, and imagine what happens to the weapons industry once we figure that out.  They're worried about anything that can provoke thought among young people, not what's "safe".  I don't need to remind anyone how many alcohol and tobacco related deaths occur every year.

[drift]

No. Your best bet is when the annual douchebag politician in your state brings it up to appear tough on drugs, someone with a modicum of common sense regulates it instead of outright banning it. That, however, is wishful thinking as other than Cali, I can't recall a single state that didn't just outlaw it entirely.

[flourishing]

I think the sensible thing is to focus on why most politicians want S.D. to be illegal.  They certainly feel pressure from people who are ignorant of the plant, bad press in papers, and silly videos on the internet.  Those are all contributing factors to why S.D. is being targeted.  Since we cannot change perceptions overnight, post replies that will impact the papers, or stop 16 year old's from posting youtube videos, then we need to at very least be open to a route that is far more non-invasive.  Cultivation is key.

There are lots of reasons why cultivation is far more important than legalization of S.D. on an across the board basis.

First, politicians want to remove extracts (on the whole) and not the plant.  For the amateur botanist this is spectacular news and is all I care about anyway.  Since I don't even use my S.D. for any other use than looking beautiful in my garden, I really don't care much for them making packets of 60x illegal.  I can still have the S.D. in my garden and enjoy it for what it is first and foremost, a beautiful plant.

Second, for those who only view S.D. as a "good time", and sadly many do, they can still have their good time legally if the plant is not illegal.  Again, cultivation becomes the focal point here.

Third, unless you are intended to traffic illegal extractions, which anyone with common sense would discourage anyway, then we should be content that the politicians have thrown us a bone in keeping the plant legal.

Finally, the reason that S.D. has become so misrepresented is entirely due to extracted forms being used.  Search for "salvia quid" method on youtube.  There are NO videos of people using this plant in the shamanic way that it was intended.  Do you think politicians and other groups would be hot on making it illegal if the videos were of people sitting around crunching on salvia salad and then enjoying an entirely different trip?  It is only when S.D. is abused that it gets bad press.  So, once again, I suggest that we be content with legalization of the plant for cultivation!

Cultivation provides the grower with everything they need.  Is it nice to be able to go to the store and buy an extraction?  I guess so, though I've never had the inclination, but I'd still rather have my plant legal instead of 60x winding up in the wrong hands.

If the plant is legal, the active substance is legal for personal use.  Could we ask for more?

If someone told you, "You can grow marijuana, but not sell it, carry it other places, package it for resale, sell it at a store, etc..."  How ecstatic would growers be?  They'd be happy because if the plant is legal, the compound is available for personal use.  See my point?


Keep the plant legal alone and the other problems are solved.

[Pentagon]

What needs to be done is something sort of like what we have done in Canada with Peyote. It is a criminal offense to extract mescaline from your cacti. But having the cacti is a non issue. Personally I don't think extraction should be a criminal offense but a civil one. You'd get a fine or something at most. I kind of like what Spain has done with Salvia. The sale of Salvia divinorum has been illegal since February 6, 2004. The law only prohibits commerce. It does not make possession or use a crime. I believe giving away the plant is specifically exempt from the law. So if you are doing the extraction in the privacy of your own home, and not distributing it, there is not going to be an issue.

[Teotzlcoatl]

I think what Spain is doing is great.

No commerce.

I basically just think plants should be legal and drugs illegal.

Meaning you could has as many Salvia divinorum plants and dried leafs as you wanted, but the extracts would be illegal.

Good post flourishing!

[Pentagon]

Some plants contain drugs, namely Salvia divinorum. Extracts are good for lots of reasons. For starters it means you need not inhale as much smoke (harm reduction, regardless of what you're smoking.) Also extracts of things are often more useful than the raw plant. (various industrial hemp and cannabis extracts for example.)

[drift]

I think what Spain is doing is great.

No commerce.

I basically just think plants should be legal and drugs illegal.

I basically think sweeping generalizations are rarely a good solution. How about the legality of the drugs be based on something more concrete like say abuse potential, harm, medical use and actual dangers and done on an individual basis.

Meaning you could has as many Salvia divinorum plants and dried leafs as you wanted, but the extracts would be illegal.

You've managed to come up with something more retarded than current drug laws. Kudos~

[Teotzlcoatl]

It makes sense if you really look at it.

Plants are MUCH harder to abuse than extracted drugs.

Look at the difference between the use of Coca leafs and the use of cocaine.

Coca leaf is a wonderful, healthy, green tea-like drink which has no negative health effects... cocaine on the other hand can be terrible for you and ruin your life.

Basically my point is... no matter what drug laws are made, it should ALWAYS be legal to grow plants! Especially if you don't intend to use them to produce drugs!